Tuning problem on 5 & 10 for a sho bud pro 2

[Ryan Forster]

Hoping someone can give me some answers/advice for fixing a tuning problem on my 73’ Sho Bud Pro 2 (2 hole changer with barrel adjusters) . My B strings (5 & 10) start to go flat within a very short time of playing but will also start to correct themselves aswell, but more often than not they go flat. I have checked the roller. It for movement and that seems good, I have adjusted the pedal travel a few times to no avail and I did tighten the lower return spring a little (as I read that on the forum) but again no luck. The other strings seem to stay in tune pretty darn good but the B strings are frustrating me. I have tightened everything I can see underneath and lubricated the moving parts using triflow but still the same problem. Any advice before I pull the last remaining hairs I have out?

Cheers
Ryan

[Ryan Forster]

Some more photos

[Lane Gray]

Have you taken the time to observe the behavior of the lowering bars (due to the design, I hesitate to call them scissors like a regular all-pull)?
If they're moving too, which I'd suspect would be the case, you'll either
1) want still more tension on the return spring or
2)lube all three rivets on each finger again,
3) maybe take it all apart and check that the rivets aren't too tight or too sloppy.

[Ryan Forster]

The lower does move down when the A pedal is activated but that is the same for all the pedals, so should I tighten the lower return spring (don’t have a way to tighten the raises) more in both the 5th & 10th string? Will it cause me problems if I tighten them a bunch , there are no lowers on those strings. Pretty new to pedal steel sorry if stuff seems obvious but how do you oil those joints when they’re inside the changer? Is it possible to do without taking it apart?
I was hoping to avoid taking it apart as I’ve never done it but maybe that’s my only option, I guess it’s something you got to figure out at some point. I got it off the forum in July but it was quite dirty although the underside looked pretty good. It’s likely someone used greats in the changer at some point

[Ryan Forster]

Ok so i tightened the lower helper spring on the 5th and 10th string quite a bit and it is a little bit better but still does go flat, but for some reason eventually returns to pitch. Can adjacent lower springs effect the tuning aswell?

[Lane Gray]

It's the lower returns, not the helpers, that I'd worry about.
What's probably happening (since I'm not looking at your guitar, I can only speak of probably) is that, as you tighten the string, the resistance to further motion goes up, and it becomes easier to pull the lowering bar off the stop bar than it is to pull the raise bar. You need enough oomph on the return spring for it to tell the the raise bar to bugger off.
Yes, tightening the helper spring can alleviate the problem, but if there's not enough tension on the return spring, that's just masking the issue.

[Frank Freniere]

Great to see Lane back on the Forum after a long absence.

[Ryan Forster]

Ok that makes sense, is it possible to tighten those raise return springs without taking the whole changer apart? It’s the ones closest to the body of the guitar i am imaginging? Thanks for this advice this is definently teaching me a bunch of stuff i need to know

[Lane Gray]

Ok that makes sense, is it possible to tighten those raise return springs without taking the whole changer apart?

Yes, they're the screws below the changer bars/fingers in the second picture in your post.

It’s the ones closest to the body of the guitar i am imaginging? Thanks for this advice this is definently teaching me a bunch of stuff i need to know

The ones closest to the body are the helper springs.

[Ryan Forster]

I tightened those screws on those springs for string 5-10 as far as I can last night and did notice a difference although not solved, they do still go flat but come back in and out of tune as I am playing. Curious if I put a .040 on the lower string if that would help for tuning stability? When I put on a wound 6th string my problems with that string going out of tune went away.

[Andrew Roblin]

There should be no lubrication on the barrels.
If there is, they will turn when the pedal is activated. This will make the change go out of tune.

[Lane Gray]

Good shout. If they've been lubed, take them apart and dry them

[Ryan Forster]

No I’ve never lubed that part as I was aware of that but I have ordered new ones from PSG parts a few days ago to replace some as I found the original ones have a very short pin which can make it a pain in the ass for tuning ( the newer ones I used were twice as long)

[Ryan Forster]

To me it’s strange that it’s just my A pedal raise strings that are having this problem

[Lane Gray]

Since you don't lower your Bs, you could always keep the lowering bars from moving by putting a narrow angle bracket on the deck, holding the lowering bars in place. It's a drastic solution, but if the lowering bars are moving, that's gotta stop.

Or you could replace the springs with a threaded rod and a nut.

[Ryan Forster]

It’s really baffling me, i put the return springs really tight like you said but it still drifts in and out of being flat. The “scissor’ doesn’t appear to move inwards just down a bit which all of them seem to do, it looks relatively clean in the changer aswell so i don’t think it’s gunked up and the fact that it is both the strings connected to the A pedal makes me think that’s not it. I even loosened the spring back off as an experiment and it didn’t seem Any worse then when they were tight. Could it be something to do with the cross shaft? It does have more movement in its bracket then the other ones it seem.

Ryan

[Bobby D. Jones]

If the problem is just on the 5&10 strings. Go through all the pull chain of the A pedal, And the C pedal, From the pedal to rack and pull rods, to the changer. If both strings are being affected, Does not sound like in changer, But in the A pedal or C pedal pull chain. Just another thing to that needs to be checked, And eliminated in the search for the problem.
Good luck finding the problem, Happy Steelin.

[Lane Gray]

I'm with Bobby. If the lowering bar isn't moving, something in the pull train is introducing a delightful element of randomness. Make sure the pedal pull is hitting the stop square on and that the bellcrank screw is tight.

[Ryan Forster]

Going through the chain and so far nothing jumping, definitely frustrating haha. I ordered a couple return springs to replace the old ones just in case and will try oiling a few more joints , if this does nothing I have naphtha and will try initially to flush it before I go for a full tear down/clean of the changer. If only the hours/days I spend trying to figure out the mechanics could be used playing

[Ricky Davis]

Here's something I have run into, for one reason or another; I attached a pic of this single/single finger you use barrel tuners to fine tune with; and circled the HOLE I'm talking about. The rod runs though the raise hole you see at endplate and it runs those a longer hole on back side of that finger and on to the puller or rack. I've had the rod rubbing too hard on that back longer hole and and that will affect the movement of the pull rod; just enough to make tuning inconsistent. I would take barrel off and move the rod back and forth and if I feel that rod rubbing there; I will take rod out and either drill it out more on side it's rubbing on or metal File it....Until that rod will move back and forth through there with NO FRICTION at All and WaLA.....all fixed and perfect consistent movement. But you do have to check out the other roller and barrel on that rod through C pedal puller.
Both those barrels on that B string raise rod; as I little bit of spring sticking out the front of it to catch that barrel when engaged to turn the barrel open or close for fine tuning; well take for instance; when pushing just A pedal; of course that pedal will engage that Barrel to tune and the other barrel for C pedal will move away from its puller(that is correct) but when it moves back after tuning the A pedal; that C barrel might have a piece of spring that sticks out Too far and when moving back; it now hits that C puller and will kind of hesitate the A pedal Barrel from coming back until you retune the C pedal barrel again....so really it' is a balance until you get barrels in right place between the two....I know sounds like a hassle; but as long as I've been working on these barrel tuning shobuds(over 30 years) I found that have the right amount of Spring sticking out of front of barrel makes all the diff in the world for consisting tuning; I cut them very short so they just barely catch the puller/roller...yeeehaaaa...Have fun.

Finger Assy Professional Front.jpg

Ricky

[Ryan Forster]

Good idea! I will take the rods out and check to see if it’s rubbing against the changer causing unwanted friction, it did cross my mind over the endless hours of delerium this problem has caused me. As far as the wire on the barrel, I’m assuming you are talking about the wire that catches for tuning? Are you saying it is moving and catching the bellcrank causing it to not seat properly against it on the C pedal change? I would think if the wire was a little longer instead of shorter it would stop it from spinning slightly to cause that no? I did do a Naptha bath of the changer and it is marginally better but still not there, i will do a tear down of it when i don’t have any gigs in December to really clean it properly but it was worth doing for sure.

[Ricky Davis]

Yes a longer spring tip will catch better; but you know when you tune your A pedal barrel; that C pedal barrel moves away and it will not be caught at puller to tune; but it WILL SPIN on rod as you tune A pedal Barrel....ah...ha....and then it might come back hitting square on puller roller and compress in to; then you have to retune that then your A pedal Again....back and forth to where finally each rod will hit normal and that is a pain in the A$$; so that's why I like a small length of that spring.
Yes DO NOT use Teflon oil or naphtha(is that rubbing alcohol??; is fine for cleaning)...or any of those new oils everyone brags about.....they are CRAP.....they all dry out to a horrible movement issue....ONLY use 3 in 1 Oil or good gun Oil or Sewing machine Oil and that is it....not anything else; believe me you learn a LOT after 30 years of probably over 200 Sho-buds all the way taken apart..... and yes I do totally agree in dropping those fingers out and cleaning; then a light bead of 3 in 1 on any part that moves and make sure all crossbars are silky smooth moving and no friction there or ANY where.
Ricky

[Lane Gray]

Naptha is a class of light hydrocarbons such as zippo fuel.

It's more than one group of them, since both Zippo fuel and Coleman fuel are called naptha, but aren't quite the same. I'd clean with them, but they're too thin for lube.

[Ryan Forster]

No I wasn’t using the naphtha for lubrication, just for cleaning (I have the industrial naphtha that has no additives). Does it make sense to cut the wire on the barrel adjuster of that one right off as the stop on the C pedal has to be hand tuned (atleast that’s what I’m doing) then it can’t catch on anything and might be easier to tune ?

[Lane Gray]

Ricky may disagree, but I'm going to say don't do that, as it might slip on you without it.